Mumbrella isn’t the cause of your problem, Mr Hartigan

i read all of Mr Hartigan’s speech Tim. if u take away the attacks on bloggers, crikey etc there r some good ideas

Mind you being “Not wrong for long” is a good thing. it means you welcome comments, corrections and new info from readers, i do the same on my sites

Great post. What’s really strange is that Harto would choose the Press Club to bash bloggers, especially when many of them are producing content for print and more for the web for little or no extra money. His “radical sweeping statements unsubstantiated with evidence are common” is itself a radical sweeping statements unsubstantiated with evidence.

Great piece Tim,

As an active reader of the site – since your early days not so long ago – I tend to think Dr Mumbo knows how to sniff out a controversial story but nonetheless is a credible source of information and opinion on the “Media and Marketing” industry.

Trends are move so rapidly online it must be difficult for consolidated business who invest heavily in there infrastructure to stay on the cutting edge, while feeling under threat.

I believe now, more than ever, is the time for quality journalism and credible information sources. There’s room for smart and agile businesses of all sizes.

Brett.

they’re just scared of online =)

i for one love mumbrella. sometimes i can’t be bothered reading the full news article and quite like news aggregation sites.

i like the fact that you can comment on articles and there are well informed people on here, and that have an opinion.

Tim – great balanced response and I’m sure, if nothing else, you shall have a flurry of new consumers and commentators after today’s publicity from Hartigan.

Not sure if he knows or ignores the stat that up to 80% of mainstream news content is PR driven?

But for what it is worth, a good healthy debate is likely to ensue… 😉

Hi Tim, Enjoyed your post. I don’t think it is churlish to mention the not-Pauline Hanson pics. Nor would it be if you mentioned the not-an Email from the PMO in his key title either. The fact you didn’t mention the rubbish about Bushfires was well restrained on your part, considering the hypocrisy he wrote about your site and Crikey and the amount of original content you contain.
@neerav, yes he probably DOES have good points, but don’t you think it is ironic they are coming from him NOW, when it seems clear from what I hear and read that it has been his authority in News Limited which has contributed to removing quite an amount of what he claims as ‘the way to go’

Go you Tim! In Mumbrella’s short life, it’s paralysed our industry and we all await the news that you break first every day. Media and marketing execs from all levels are converts and that possibly includes one of the largest powerhouses in traditional media. Harto’s just sticking up for the old fashioned values that we were all taught in the early days of journalism. He’s paid to protect that powerhouse because we’re a long way away from a client paying $50k for a one day only banner ad on news.com.au but let’s face it, we’re still in an environment where the two can live happily (not for long but at the moment, it’s working, we need each other), News just may not need as many people to pull it all together as the old days. Great speech by Harto and even better response from you. Bring back the biff we say!

Great post, lovely ‘factual’ response.
However you want to characterise (pigeon-hole?) mUmbrella, it has become the preferred ‘must-read’ – if the readers love it , you gotta be doing a good thing!

Looking forward to more ‘commentary and opinion on media coverage produced by the major outlets’ AKA a damn good read.

My name is Lippy. Just call me “Almost Anyone” as that’s who I am (at best). I like blogs coz almost anyone can communicate with John #Hartigan

Damn! That is 144 characters… next time @Hart_Throb

Not wrong for long. Golly, you’ve even used that phrase on me, matey!

I really like what you’re doing with Mumbrella and I believe, as you know, that it’s validating how good ‘old school’ solid journalism can move online – perhaps loosening up a little bit as it does so, but still maintaining solid news values and producing copy that audiences are interested in.

From this week’s two News Ltd stories – and the constant vilification that your flat-headed old hacks seem to enjoy flicking in Twitter’s direction – I’d say Australian media are in as much, if not more, doo-doo than the Middle East lot. And that’s quite a lot of doo-doo because they are refusing to see the imperative to change when their readership quite clearly is signalling that imperative.

Silly sods. Really.

A brilliant rebuttal; congratulations, Tim!

Mumbrella is a refreshing approach to journalism and is simply the modern approach!

No rebuttle needed on your behalf, Tim. Keep doing as you are and watch them scramble.

Best,

G

Great response Tim. Do you think that Mr Hartigan would find it relevant that most ad & media leaders now look to Mumbrella as first source of industry news? You’ve managed this in 6 months with limited budget & resources. No wonder the mainstream press have the shits.

I think one of the main points NewsLtd and others are missing is that the day of the “generalist” media is coming to an end. What Mumbrella, HuffPo and others do is provide a more focussed service. Ie Mumbrella is purely media & advertising, HuffPo is US politics with a left-wing bias. (Mind you it could be said that Fox in US covers the other end of the political spectrum spectacularly).

And while I applaud their efforts with The Punch, I believe it suffers from being too generalist too.

So who did Harto hope to influence with his speech? I doubt whether the public gives a jot. Get over it and get on with it, mate. The future arrived several years ago and you ignored it. News Ltd is increasingly relying on wire copy (often no better than some blogs) as redundancies continue apace at all its offices. Maybe one day they’ll be taking stories from blogs.

Reading the transcript it seems like a bit of chest pumping mixed with a dash of hypocrisy and that’s about it. Nothing to get too worked up about.

If you’re on Hartigan’s radar Tim, maybe you’re a potential Newscorp acqusition? TIme to put the deposit on the waterfront mansion!

Funny, I can’t find this article anywhere on News’s site, does that mean *gulp* you wrote it all by yourself? WOW who knew?

Nice response. Always like a bit of backstory.

Nothing I like better than sticking one up the big corporates. LOVE IT! Go Tim, keep up the good work – they’re clearly threatened.

(of course by corporates, I mean corporate publishers). Someone’s got to keep them honest…

quick, get the valuers in, Tim!

Big up to the Aldershot News Tim – just in front of the Station, ahh happy days

Tim, don’t take Harto too seriously. Newspapers are losing their appeal to advertisers, as traditional print advertising isn’t working like it used to (refer to Purple Cow – Seth Godin).
Mr. Hartigan is concerned about his job, and use the scatter gun approach to fight all possible competition – instead of embracing blogging and bloggers.
Regarding content – there are millions of blogs out there – political, technical, rants, personal etc.
When someone make such a s stupid generalized statement like:
“In return for their free content, we pretty much get what we’ve paid for – something of such limited intellectual value as to be barely discernible from massive ignorance.” we can’t take it seriously.
Mr. Hartigan is scared, and threatened by his new discovery (blogs), and doesn’t really know what to do to preserve his job, and more importantly – his industry.
He now realizes that the advertising-for-revenue model doesn’t work online, and want to charge for original content. Good luck to him. This exercise may show him how much readers believe his “fact-based” news.

Keep up the good work!

Craig Wilson – great comment and I agree.

Tim,

This response is fantastic.

I’m excited for the traditionally newspaper and media model going down the toilet.

Sigh. Why is it then if blogs are so bad and legacy media is so great that News Ltd stole a story I broke on my blog? http://indolentdandy.net/fitzr.....and-i-won/

Sounds like the band is playing on (Hartigan’s speech) whilst the ship (News Ltd) is sinking. Maybe one day it will be fictionalised in a Hollywood movie? Who will play Harto, and Rupert?

“you will miss us when we are gone” has never been a compelling business model 😛

Malcolm McDowell would make a great Rupert…

(see http://images.google.com/image.....f&oq=)

I have just read this article via my mobile – if it were a paper (which i never buy anymore) , i would prob subscribe to mumbrella regularly because the content is relevant and well written – regardless of delivery method its the quality of what is written that is important

Not so long ago, I posted a piece on my own blog with the not-so-pithy title:

“Arguments used by the newspaper industry to justify its existence, why they’re flawed and what this means for Anthill Magazine.”

I am the publisher of a print magazine with broad distribution, managing the evolution from pure print to print plus digital.

What we’re hearing again and again is…

“Newspapers verify the validity of content and blogs don’t.”

First, quality blogs verify (I shouldn’t need to elaborate). Second, blog readers tell us when we’re wrong (adding an extra layer of verification). Third, blog posts can be far richer than a traditional editorial piece (simply due to the links and the comments). Fourth, readers will always be attracted to the most credible source. Five, the most credible source is often blogs for the reasons above.

The most compelling argument for this logic stream can be found here:

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/.....e-cal.html

This tiny post has, so far, attracted 132 comments from leading journalists and consultants that together present a far more in-depth overview of the ‘print versus online’ landscape than any well researched piece that could ever be produced by a single journalist or academic (Tim – Must read, this one).

We’re also hearing:

“Blogs are just aggregators of other news.”

What is a newspaper? It’s a news aggregator. Editor’s decide what stories we want to read, producing new content while also extracting external stories from newswires, such as AAP, Reuters and Bloomberg. Newspapers filter the world for us. A blog is no different. It just does a better job, when linking to the source or providing an original opinion or reporting on an event.

The only real distinction is one of economics. One option is very expensive to run. The other is not. What Hartigan needs to understand is that quality journalists (like Tim) are the ones that will challenge traditional media.

And not the unqualified, ‘massively ignorant’ blogger that he so fears.

Excellent response, not much to add…

Agreed, they missed the point Tim. There’s a place for online and a place for print. Great stuff – keep it coming.

Now would be a good time to declare, thank god for Mumbrella.
It is so refreshing to finally find an easy to access, thought provoking and relevant news source about my industry.

Brilliant response. Would love to see Hartigan respond.

And although I wasn’t at Aldershot FC’s press conference this week (because there wasn’t one), I can report some breaking news that I don’t believe anyone in Australia knows yet. “Aldershot FC have announced the newest addition to the coaching staff at the EBB Stadium is Conditioning Coach Sean Faulkner. Sean started work this week as the players returned from their summer break and he is relishing the opportunity of working with the squad”.

Love your work Tim, very few blogs I take an active interest in but I find Mumbrella is exactly what the industry needs, whether it’s what the big boys want to hear or not.

Good read Tim – and it highlights the difference between blogs run with a journalistic mindset and blogs run by… well, people who don’t have said mindset. Many styles of blog seem to have the view that it’s okay to report something wrong, provided you were the first to say it – you can always go back and correct it anyway. It’s something I find very frustrating, but I really hope that as discerning readers continue to get news, info and opinion online, it’s something we’ll see slowly disappear.

Tim – to add to the fan club, great stuff.

So many old school journo’s miss the point of this sort of open debate and comment in a free forum. And yes it takes a while to figure out fact from fiction in the blogosphere, but once you get a good one, they can be hugely insightful.

Try telling the new digital generation that there are rules to stick to and proper places (print) for proper news. Those traditional media groups that have embraced change are better for it – The Guardian being a great example.

What everyone has missed in this debate about the value of blogs is the most significant weakness of them – and Hartigan failed to pinpoint it when he spoke about the amount of vilification and sweeping statements. It’s this: anonimity. As an old press journo Tim, you would know that no editor would publish anonymous letters. Yes, writers could request their names be witheld (for a good reason) – but they had to give it and at least the editor knew who it was. Giving opinions behind the burqa of anonymity is in my view utterly meaningless. At best it’s reluctance to be identified and at worst it’s cowardice, refusing stand up for your opinion. That’s why so many are spiteful rants and that’s why I avoid blogs; I really can’t be bothered reading stuff from ‘Jak the Hack’ – frankly, my dears….

congrats on the 20 years Tim and great post

All I know is that I’m a massive fan of The Daily Beast, Huffington Post, Crikey and Mumbrella – so maybe Harto has a point.

“Whenever I feel afraid
I hold my head erect
And whistle a happy tune
So no one will suspect
I’m afraid.”

He should have introduced himself as Anna not Pollyanna.

The fact is they are dead. It’s just they haven’t read it in their own newspapers. But it’s all over Twitter and in the blogs.

When I wor a little lad, my family read four newspapers a day. Both the mornings and both arvos. I would buy one of them on the way to school and one on the way back. Mum and Dad would buy the the other two and they would be passed round the family in the evening and read avidly. Likewise several magazines.

What was once a habit is no longer. Mum and Dad are where no newspaper is of any use and not one paid for newspaper has entered the our house for years. The kids certainly don’t read newspapers and I no longer miss them at all. Especially not the right wing ravings of the so called commentators in the News rags and the SMH.

As for the local rags (when they are actually delivered) few get past the recycle bin and those that do are barely looked at and are really intended for the bottom of the bird’s cage and to wrap the garbage.

And as for the old media’s websites – they are not worth the effort. Once the SMH was high on the list of my sites visited list but no longer. I can get more detail and better commentary from other sites, blogs and increasingly podcasts.

“The result of this deception
Is very strange to tell
For when I fool the people
I fear I fool myself as well!”

Good stuff Tim, liked Mumbrella before- now even better.

Got to feel a bit sorry for Hartigan though as the techtonic plates of information delivery crack and buckle around him.
Bit like Romulus Augustus in 476 AD telling Odoacer the Germanic barbarian that he didn’t like his haircut as the interloper took over the western Roman franchise.

flattered to be compared to Huffington post? they steal everything you steal nothing.

I love newspapers and I like Mumbrella.
Always preferred a bit of this and a bit of that, not just this or that.
The world moves on, so a good idea to understood that and figure out how to evolve and exploit it. Or buy it.
As ever top work.
Onya Tim.

I find it very telling that Hartigan obviously was telling the truth: he doesnt read online media such as this blog otherwise he would see the deep feeling and groundswell support towards online blogs and sources.

Another message of goodwill: nicely done, Tim, nicely done.

For the record, I’d say you reached journalistic maturity on the Crawley News under the guidance of a top subbing team, but that’s merely an aside. More importantly, has Mr Hartigan responded yet?

You’re spot on about the problem at News. Murdoch doesn’t seem to understand digital it filters down from there. They’d be wise, as you suggest, to take a lead from some of the more aware employees down the chain.

I don’t know Harto… and maybe that’s one of the problems (bear with me on this).

The world has changed. Here’s one specific reason why: There are a lot of smart people writing comments in here under this article. I know many of them to be smart because they have adapted with recent digital changes and become digitally visible and social – they offer the ability for me to listen and interact with them at will in places like Twitter. I have learned from them which people to take seriously, and which ones to ignore when reading the comments above. You see Harto- this is the blood that gives opinions (including bloggers opinions) value. Here’s the tipping point where opinions become content as good and as relevant as anything you can offer me in a newspaper, if not better.

No, I don’t know Harto… but if I did I would suggest three things to him:

1. Firstly, read this article, and the comments. (Are you here already?)
2. Join the debate in here, yes, in Mumbrella’s site, in these comments.
3. Become an accessible part of the digital community ongoing through Twitter or other means.

Why is this important?
John I don’t know you… yet people tell me you’re also a smart guy. This means that you know that you cannot expect people to trust movie reviews written by someone who only appears to have watched the trailers or someone else’s review.

So here’s a genuine challenge I’ll lay down to you John… allow the rest of us to witness that your views and strategies come from authentic practice within the digital medium (pt 3 above). This will enable people like myself who don’t know you, to be able to attach some value and credibility to your opinions ongoing.

Last thing, and this goes out to ALL CEO’s, MDs etc: None of you are too busy to do the above. You don’t know what you don’t know… So know it before it ruins you!

Iain. (eunmac)
* was that ranty? – I meant it to be constructive *
Ahh you all know where to find me and abuse back if I was 😉

James Tuckerman, are the oldschool newspaper folk unfairly grouping the everyday blogs with the more polished examples through ignorance? Or is it more the case that it serves their interests to paint the best with the flaws of the worst to discredit these competitors in the eyes of the public?

Ahhh, The Aldershot News….I’ve just gone all misty eyed…

Touche, Timbo!

I think Mr Hartigan needs to get you in Tim to help his organisation move to the new millennium.

It’s usually the ones that can’t or don’t know how that complain and moan.

Keep it up Tim.

Tim

Keep up the great work mate, News would not mention you by name without an agenda!