Why are there so few female ECDs and CMOs?

Maybe if clients put a little pressure on agencies the situation would start to change.

Hi Simone,

If you can explain how women can do children + full on caree &being able to do it all, and do it all well then you’ll likely answer your question!

In the advertising industry ‘Creatives’ are synonymous with ego – is this also more synonymous with men? Is a male ego (balls/testosterone!) almost part of the make-up required to conquer and succeed in this world?

A good example is of women working hard and then being humble about it (especially as advertising – and creative – is all about the pony show). Us girls smile a lot, cross our legs and keep arms close when sitting down – this creates a smaller space which subconsciously signals to other people that you’re not of importance. Men typically sprawl.

Hello Simone,

Women are widely recognised as being stronger multi taskers than men, often with superior organisational skills – taking this into account, perhaps women naturally gravitate more towards senior management roles juggling lots of different aspects, as opposed to lead creative roles which are more focused?

Hey Simone,

I could walk over to your desk and ask you, but probably more useful if I contribute to the conversation on here. Maybe it’s just me; I think that males are more thick-skinned. They can present idea after idea, and if they get knocked back, they don’t take it personally. They seem to find it easier to plough on without worrying what people think. I often feel nervous or unworthy presenting my ideas in front of male creative teams, which doubtless will stymie my progress in this cut-throat industry!

PS: I still think I have your copy of ‘Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office!

There is absolutely no way that men are just ‘more creative’ than women. I think it comes down to a lot of things, in particular, a woman’s ability to make herself so indispensable in certain roles that promotion is a scary thought for senior managers/business directors. But ultimately, I don’t think its really worth dwelling on. The right person for the job will get the job in practically every case, regardless of gender… and I’d hate to think I got the job just cos senior management needs more female bums on seats.

madison, a man is never asked how to juggle children with career. because it’s irrelevant.

Yawn… I’m getting deja vu all over again

Men play “The Game” better than women. It’s all about politics once you reach a certain level.

The women l know who are at a very top level of multinationals [usually 2nd tier] had to be “one of the boys” and work twice as hard to be perceived in the same light as their male colleagues.

Most of us girls have been joking that a trip to an adult shop and buying a strap on may further our careers – crass but that’s how it feels.

As a mother it is too effing hard – the Governor General summed it up in an interview with Kerry O’Brien when asked if mothers can have it all – “You can have it all, just not at the same time”. I have been a Production and Creative Services Director but know that I could not do that now unless my husband stayed at home and I know that I would not earn the same salary as a male would so furthering my career at this time is not an option.

So, my questions are:

Why is it that compassion is seen as a weakness?

If I can negotiate a 3yr old down from a massive meltdown, avoid the temper tantrum and achieve the desired out come without disrespecting or belittling him, why is that not a skill set that is seen as an asset? Surely that shows strong leadership values?

Why don’t women get invited to the Golf Days that most middle and senior male management seem to be invited to?

Why, if a woman stands up for her creative work she is seen as difficult, precious or a ball breaker, but a man is seen as passionate?

I don’t know how it can be improved, I’ve had a manger who is forward thinking and yet still criticised me when I had a sick child I had to look after. I was still working from the home office I set up purely for that very reason. He just didn’t get it because his wife was able to stay at home and run the household.

Helen Nash from McDonald’s would be an interested speaker

Hi Simone,

Creative teams in ad agencies are a competitive group of people. Perhaps it is a masculine trait to be the one to ‘come up with the best idea’. It gives you bragging rights. Are men more competitive than women? Do men care more about how they are perceived?

I’ve heard plenty of people describe themselves as an ‘ideas man’ but you don’t hear of too many ‘ideas women’.

I’m so glad this is on the agenda. I’m heartily sick of hearing senior women get asked how they manage to juggle work and home lives, a question literally never asked of men.

It’s incredibly complex, but I think there are two fundamental issues:
firstly, gendered behavioural reinforcement from birth – so girls are still encouraged to be agreeable and well liked rather than iconoclastic, rewarded for being good listeners and putting other people’s needs ahead of our own, having empathy and delicacy. Not traits you find in many male ECDs (to bust out another sexist generalisation). Case in point – MicheyD prefacing her comment with the charmingly self-effacing “Maybe it’s just me…”

Gender difference permeates culture, language – we say admiringly of something strong and daring that it was a “ballsy” move. There are no terms of approbation that relate to female genitalia, as far as I’m aware.

I think the second issue results from the first: there are few female role models, fewer still female mentors.
Acknowledging that things are harder / different for women in the industry is a good start – but it would be amazing to hear more stories from women who’ve made it.

Every one of the many brilliant, creative and talented women I know admits that they find stuff like negotiating pay rises, or being tough (when it’s needed) without being labelled a “bitch” sometimes challenging. Hearing other’s war stories would only help.

Are there so few female mentors because it takes so much more energy to be successful as a woman that there’s simply no time or space left to give back, or are women pulling the ladder up after them after becoming embattled and bitter? I lean to the former- what do you reckon?

I think all of these comments around barriers to women “getting ahead” are pretty accurate. It’s a pretty multifaceted cultural issue.

Women “aren’t meant to be assertive/intelligent/empowered/driven/argumentative”, and when they are, their opinions are disqualified – this is so entrenched in our culture that this is reflected at a Government level (ie. Penny Wong and #meowgate: http://search.twitter.com/sear.....23meowgate)

And the most interesting part about this discussion (or, at least this thread) is that the defence of women being represented equally, whether its in agencies or in government, really seems to be argued only by women. And I think that’s reflective of a pretty huge issue.

I must admit, i’m genuinely baffled by these sorts of “Why aren’t gender x adequately represented in profession y” debates. I can fully understand and support arguments for ensuring people doing the same job get the same salary regardless of gender, but the idea that every single profession or level needs to be represented equally by gender doesn’t seem to make sense. It seems to discount that there are actually inherent differences in the natures of the different genders and push that we all need to be androgynous. There are certain professions that are strongly female dominated – nursing, teaching, a lot of charity and NFPs. Is that a crisis that needs to be solved, or simply an interesting trend ?

Am i missing the point ?

This issue is riddled with centuries of misconception. Eheu! Here we go.
It seems men regard their sperm as separate entities from there body, and you can blame the Pope mob for that idea.
My solution is to get Top Suits who get their wives (or whomever) pregnant to have enforced child rearing time-off from the ruthless pursuits. It would both de-power and empower them at the same time. It would in fact be made of win for all.

Interesting video. I’ve been following the arguments, both in Australia and internationally:

– Times are changing; when you note that in 10 years only 30% of households will have a non paid female partner in the h’hold; where more men are seeking parental leave or part time work; where Gen (X and) Y share household commitments.

– The under 50s ‘boys club’ is not as evident. Furthermore, men are engaging in the conversation and (slowly) making the decisions that will drive the change – optics over the issue helps.

– Support systems (husbands, grandparents, nannies) are also needed. The change needs to start at home if females are to chase and accept the opportunities.

In our home, we both work full time and flexibly so the one thing I haven’t been able to reconcile as a professional mother of a boy and a girl is this: if I am a university educated leader and not fulfilling my potential in life, will our daughter be doing anything differently in 20 years and what message and I sending to our son?

Male /female job share anyone? Two and a half days work a week would be just enough a win/win.

A more intersting statistic would be: How many women are actually applying for these positions, in a position for promotion or actively indicating their desire for these positions in the first place?

It could simply be that there are more men are in these roles because more men are putting their hand up for them.

Until the statistics show that there there were significant numbers of women actually applying for or indicating their interest in promotion to these positions then we can’t start addressing the problem. Until we know this there is no actual evidence that women are being overlooked based on gender or gender perceptions alone.

And if we find that women aren’t actually putting their hands up for the jobs in the first place for whatever reason, well, then we’ve found our answer.

And, to be somewhat tongue in cheek here, if any person, male or female thinks that it’s all “too effing hard”, then they probably don’t have what it takes to be in a senior role anyway…. The whole point of senior leadership is that it is effing hard!

Years ago I heard a sociologist present on the changes to society since the 1960’s and how growing equality for men and women is changing the workplace. This was true for me up to the point I had a child, then the equality went out the window.
I worked my way up the agency ladder in another traditionally male department (data planning & analytics) but since having a child, I’m stressed out working 30 hours a week. If we continue to live in a world where you can’t have career progression without working 60 hours a week, things will never change.
I agree with “anonymous” that women do not apply for these roles …but I don’t think it is because the role is too “effing hard”, it is because their family commitments are more important to them. The rare exceptions are those female agency MDs (I know a couple) that are very successful but their husbands are working in teaching or some other family friendly environment. Most of us have husbands under huge pressure to work more and more hours and absolutely no desire to be home-makers.
If you are paid enough money, yes you can have a live in nanny that allows you to work all the hours under the sun as well but I simply don’t want to bring children into this world and never see them. Add to this the fact that career women are more likely to be 30-40 something before they start having kids, by the time the kids are grown up, they are close to retirement.
My current employer is a rare gem – allowing me to work part time hours and be based from home when I need to. But I understand that I will never be given more responsibility because I can’t dedicate myself to the job.
The only way I can see this improving is if more men decide to be primary carers of children (and society starts to accept it) and this will not appeal to many men these days.

REF: Relative intelligence quotients.
Women tend to use both hemispheres of their brains in harmony, which is a must for the creative process. Men tend to be lopsided firing on the right-brained side. This accounts for their single mindedness and tenacity which is necessary and good. However they do most of their thinking with only half the available resources of their brains. An ideal combo would be a man + woman team on equal remuneration.

Obviously having children necessitates a career break for women (and this generally acts as a hindrance to career advancement), but this aside, many women are less confident and simply don’t apply for these roles. Perhaps a cultural change is required to make these roles more attractive to women.

here’s a new book on female CD’s that people may find interesting:

http://ihaveanidea.org/books/s.....for-a-man/

and this isn’t a man/woman comment but there’s a big difference in being a good creative and being good ecd – for both sexes.

some people are better players than coaches – and vice versa.

no matter your chromosomes, there are very few good ecd’s anywhere in the world.

It depends on how you look at senior roles. There are plenty of women out there who work for themselves and by default are at the top of the tree running their own businesses. They are creating their own flexibility and also creating their own wealth, not relying on a performance review to penalise them or reward them depending on how many people are allowed on whatever point of the bell curve or the hours spent in the office.
Having had two children, working full time is simply not an option. Despite my ambitions, I didn’t have children to farm out the care of them and I have seen them suffer when I haven’t been around, primary carer or not.
So put simply, the trade-offs are too great. You either sacrifice aspects of a rewarding career for a few years or you sacrifice your children. It’s a really tough tug-of-war. Which I don’t think is worth it for the sake of a JOB.
Job share and part time work is as rare as hen’s teeth and it would be good if businesses made these roles more available.
I still wonder why in a year with so much talk about women in senior management, they haven’t cottoned onto the fact that plenty of women don’t want to deal with the stress that comes with very senior roles.
Most women with children, working part time, spend much of their time desperately trying to get their work done, forget getting recognised/promoted (part-timers get overlooked, not promoted), so they can get out the door on time to collect children and avoid a meltdown at the end of the day.
Honestly, does this sound like a fun way to spend your day?

I think one of the most perceptive comments was from MicheyD, who said that men are able to bounce back from having their ideas criticised much easier. I found that very intriguing.
Men are also less likely to make apologies for the times they can’t be at work; they are braver about pushing for recognition and more money and not as caught up with bitching about each other.
I’ve learned a great deal from my creative guy friends. I don’t think it has made me ‘one of the boys’ but taking on those traits has certainly given me more opportunities to succeed.

Anon at 3:31.
A sensible honest voice in a sea of silliness.

Seems to me women have always been better at valuing their time than men. They just seem to be better at creating a set of values and managing their lives against these values. I see it everyday – women who draw the line about what they will do and what they won’t. They also have to fill a few more roles than us men and the job of having a family falls largely to the woman. It’s also no accident that the caring professions are largely populated by women.

Men on the other hand are content to argue over an idea that may or may not end up on TV for a nanosecond before it’s forgotten. We’re also happy to pitch ideas for no money, then discount our rates because we want to work on a particular job despite the fact the client is not paying enough for it.

The life of the CMO is not exactly a lot of fun either. Dealing with corporate lethargy is mind numbing. It’s also not important work – discounting rubbish to retailers so punters can spend their hard earned money on things they don’t need is not exactly something to drag you out of bed.

Not to mention the fact women do not create an image for themselves based on how many hours they spend at the office. Small business is full of women avoiding this fate.

If a women wants all of this then she should be allowed. Most of the time they don’t. I am quite sure the industry would benefit from the empathetic skills of women and the real issue is how do we make the industry palatable to the most skilled women. The fact we don’t have women in these roles is the canary in the coal mine.

I think if women want to be a C

Having just attended the M360 session on women or the lack of them in creative leadership roles, I was disappointed to see that the panel (both at this morning’s session and the session on this link) does not have one single “advertising creative woman” on it.
At today’s session, there were only 2 women who actually work in a senior role (creative group heads) in the creative department of a major agency. I was a little bit confused as to how the subject matter seemed to go from the creative point of view, to how many women are on boards and then how to juggle your career and a baby and more familiar themes. The women on the panel were indeed an inspiring group, all having managed to rise to the top of their fields and actually manage jobs in workplace cultures which do allow the juggling of motherhood, family life etc. and letting them continue their careers whether they be in an office or at the computer at home after dinner. Good on them. They are as I said, an inspiration.
But from my experience, the reality of living day to day in a creative department is a far different kettle of fish to other corporate environments.
I always wonder why, when the subject matter of “women in business” comes up, the discussion always turns towards, children, families, maternity leave, maternity pay… I don’t think that alone is the problem with keeping women in the creative departments of agencies. Sure it’s a big part of it, as the majority of women are married with kids, but I have many woman colleagues who don’t have kids, who just don’t want to be in those creative departments any more.
For me, this debate needs to move on from the general inequality of being a woman in business, ie company boards and maternity leave, and early marks from work, (not trivializing it, but it’s been well represented) and focus a bit more on the actual creative environments in agencies.
Why not start with the question of equal pay?
Have a good long hard look across the pay slips of creatives in the same senior positions and you’ll see a definite difference.
Is an idea written through female insights any less valid than an idea written through the eyes of a bloke…some seem to think so!
Or when people accuse women of “behaving like a man”, are they actually behaving like a man or have they just adapted to the personality of the environment they inhabit every day?
When a man gets fired up about his idea, he is being passionate, when a woman gets fired up, she is perceived as an “irrational nutter probably on her rags.”
And as for the insight that maybe men have tougher skins when it comes to seeing their ideas get rejected…COME ON PEOPLE GET REAL… no women have the same sized egos to bruise as men do…

And then maybe we should explore the political argy bargy that seeps into every corner once you reach a certain level in creative….if you have any doubts it exists then go have a gawk at a certain competitive blog… if you think the attitudes and the opinions of the anons sit only on the blog, then you need to look again.
Having spent my adult life (25 years) in the creative department of an agency, and having known and worked with many amazing female creatives along the way, here is my humble insight.

The reason there aren’t many senior females in creative departments is because
women just probably wake up one day, go into work, and think “for God’s sake this is carry-on is ridiculous”! I am surrounded by multiples of man-children all dressed like the Back Street Boys, I am stressing my life away over a face cream and a deadline , not for an organ transplant but for a live read radio script for pizza….“What am I doing here?” and make a decision to go off and make their world a better place. Pure and simple. Just walk away and leave it all behind and have a nice life, as a mum, sister, writer, artist, wife … whoever they are.

Well said PJS. You made me laugh!

1. Woman starts work, climbs ladder
2. Woman gets married, has kids, priorities change
3. Woman out of workforce for extended period of time
4. Man gets job because he has more experience purely because he didn’t need to take a few years off to look after the kids.

Of course there are exceptions but it’s not exactly rocket surgery.

Advertising, much like the music industry, has always been and will always try to preserve a “boy’s culture”. I guess it makes them feel more important in an ever emasculating society.

Dear 11.30am…
do you mean brain surgery or rocket science?

Dear pjs

http://www.urbandictionary.com.....%20surgery

PJS sums it up very well, as does the phrase “it’s just too ‘effin hard”. I don’t think women have “thin skins” so much as that there is a tolerance for attacking women twice as hard as men.

There are a lot of obstacles for women in business. Sometimes those obstacles are men with old fashioned views and sometimes those obstacles are other women.

Instead of talking about it – why don’t we actually do something about! If you are interested in changing this talk to Jenny Morris (www.orijen.com.au) – runs fantastic programs and is making a lot of difference already via the Success Circle program

Let’s take some learnings from the social entrepreneur sector, where 40% of leaders are women (swamps the less than 10% figure from the corporate sector).

Ashoka (a global social entrepreneur agency) says 40% of the social entrepreneurs they back are women. So here we have a huge amount of creative, risk-taking, strong enterprise leaders who are women, running organisations in a sector with totally different values & culture. Women with huge strengths, creating huge value in the system around them, in enterprise ideas they have authored.

My hunch about why there’s so few women in corporate leadership is because lots of women don’t aspire to leadership in a system where you need to behave like a bloke to get ahead – that values ego, self interest, winning at all costs, domination, politics, making the corporation your #1 priority in life

I’m all with Midi Berry (post 4 June) – the paradigm is what needs to change, before women’s strengths are acknowledged & measured. And PJ’s (post 8 June) – god love your honesty, hilarious it’s so true. At a certain point, lots of women grow up and on and want to contribute value to things other than corporations – communities, their own ideas, families, personal passions. Why is corporate power & an ever increasing income the only bar by which we’re all being measured?

You’re never going to see the real story if you’re measuring water with a measuring tape

http://www.mumpreurstories.wordpress.com