Answers for Adam: Are Aussie agencies better with Brits, or without?

Interesting question about intuitive heuristics.
And the middle-class public school English planner you describe conforms to some law of prototypicality that it can be useful to adopt (loads of these in the US too).
But can I also point out that there are more countries in Britain than just England 😉

This, is a new low.

As an Aussie who studied Latin and Philosophy, I’d like to point out that there’s a not very subtle error in this sentence.

“I’d say this stuff arguing that many Australian’s have an inbuilt distrust of the British – still.”

See if you can find it Adam, or maybe you could get one of the Übermensch you seem to work with to find it for you.

Adam,

what a stupid topic. Change Brit to someones ethnicity, color, cred or religion and realise how stupid your question is!

Why should a person underplay there background or hide their character traits. To fit in? to be the same? i expect so much more from you!

What does it matter, diversity is key in this country and this is a diverse multicultural meting pot! long may everyone has a voice to be more individual and brave…there in lies the uniqueness this industry craves.

Great question to ask.

This is Australia. And British-ness has no relevance. Which is not to say Brits have no place. But my god, there is a pack of them and they don’t integrate well. Lots of them at mumbrella too.

THEY TOOK ERRRR JOBS!

My name says it all. Echo Progressive Thinker’s words.

Contentious, but at least this is a controlled environment for discussion because it is in some ways a valid point. I once worked with a guy whose British accent would slip back to his native South African whenever he would lose it. Clients loved the British accent and it definitely made him appear more credible than he actually was.

I’m not sure whether it’s about the actual merit of the individual, though. I’ve met some great performing Brits (and South Africans), and I’ve met some real charlatans as well. The accent is as much about presentation and perception as a three-day stubble or a three-piece suit is. I think some clients hear an overseas accent and automatically assume a greater level of experience. Sort of an example of cultural cringe. I don’t think they would be prepared to admit it, though.

And I don’t think its an offensive question. Just an interesting launching point for the type of discussion you really don’t get anywhere else.

I don’t think for the vast majority of client or agencies, it’s something they really care about. I’ve never met a client yet who commented on it in this manner, nor have I met a client department that doesn’t have at least one UK or US person in it.

We (Poms) come over here, Aussies go over to the UK, we both have a deep down fascination with each other’s countries.

But seriously, as long as the work is good who really cares? Aussie standards have gone up a lot, and that’s due both to great people from the UK, and better Aussie staff. Long may it continue.

Adam Ferrier asking some one not to be too theoretical – too funny

As someone who has worked in planning in the US, UK and now AUS, I’ve found that accent and education doesn’t matter. There will always be planners who superficially waffle on and waste everyones time and money, and good planners who get the job done intelligently and add genuine value.

Sadly though, and likely due to the perpetual demand for ‘shallow planning’ (from both clients and creative agencies), it means there are now far more waffle-makers than value-creators.

I’m a rabbit, so do dislike the Brits and their foxes.

Rather than let that bias my view, I think the answer is simple. They have neither a positive or negative impact on the quality of work. They do have a negative impact on the industry however, that being one related to job opportunity (the english accent tends to land an ignorant brit a job over a more qualified aussie), and, they contribute (typically) less in tax. The 457 visa is a joke in this industry

I am Aussie and resent the implication that my university degree wasn’t as useless and theoretical as any Englishwoman’s!

We need a ‘Danny Bass’ response to this!

I’d question your tax comment Bob. I can tell you I certainly paid tax on a par with the rest of the Aussies I worked with in agency, and a lot more than I’d have had to pay in the UK.

There were equally good staff from both nations, but we did find it hard to recruit on merit and not end up with a high % of brits. Could it be motivation to migrate as part of a role? something about a 457 opportunity being a great kick-up-the-backside motivator… Personally, I gave up a lot to move here on a 457, so I had to really want to do it.

The bigger issue IMO is that the current advertising structure does not play to the potential that is our muticulturalism.

Most ads (even when they make the effort to include someone of “alternative appearance”) still play to the white, english background and history.

Its time to look outside of europe advertisers.

So…speaking as a client….yes it can make a difference.

Some of it depends on how long the individual has been in the country. For an FMCG business, a good understanding of our grocery duopoly is crucial. The UK market could not be more different (at the moment). For some brands you need a planner with Australian cultural sensitivity, experience and knowledge that, unless you’ve been here for a decade or two, you really can’t fake or appreciate. And for other brands an historical experience of the brand itself (e.g. having a Comm Bank Money Box, sucking your tea through a TimTam, drinking too much West Coast Cooler etc.) can help in looking at how consumers relate to a product.

And unfortunately, too often we’ve seen our British agency staff leave rapidly because they miss home / want a baby / miss family etc etc. So while it’s a very broad generalisation, there are times when having an all Aussie planning team is more useful than not.

The media industry in Australia has repeatedly made several errors. Firstly, there is almost no pathway for planners. We still expect people to start in buying and work their way up. By the time they do, their value in an investment team makes them relatively expensive. We, therefore, look to import cheaper UK counterparts who started in planning and paid on average $20k less. Our second mistake is to revere planning, and reduce everything else to second rate.

Australians are equally as intelligent, but are simply trained more broadly. The POMs have better written skills in general and can not only punctuate, but know the difference between plural, and possessive….eh, Adam?

Adam, is ‘bloke’ a generic term or are you assuming all Aussie planners are male?

Really Bob? My enduring memory of the first two years on my 457 was that I was an Australian resident for the purposes of tax but not for benefits. It also costs a cocking fortune to get into your lucky country full stop.

Worth every penny though. Or cent I guess.

I’ve no idea what Aussies think of Poms in advertising but this Pom thinks Aussies in advertising are awesome. A refreshing and welcome change to working in UK agencies that are so up themselves it has gone really quite dark. My enduring memory of starting work here 7 years ago was how talented everybody was and how keen they were to do genuinely great work.

Adam, you’ve sparked a great great debate – but really, its about the work created as much as the people that deliver it. Previous comment (Ed), very poor response on why you want an all Australian business, feel like their were times in history when this was also a common theme! Or were you to busy sucking your tea through Tim Tams to study that. Its the reason we all travel to have exposure to different things and why so many of us Aussies go overseas.

My business would like a range of people from a range of backgrounds with a range of thinking, a range of life experiences to drive a range of solutions…and to give our possible consumers a range of choices

As a client, I don’t care if they are Brit, Aussie, South African or what, so long as they understand our requirements and perform well in the tasks assigned to them. However, as I’m engaging an Australian company, I would expect that even if a senior management is Brit/non-Australian, that he/she has lived/worked in Australia long enough to be able to provide the best advice and guidance I expect from my PR company.

Replace the word ‘Pom’ with ‘black’ and this article would never appear. Just because you’re talking about Brits doesn’t make racism ok.

Sorry Bob but I disagree.
The reason Brits were so coveted here for many years was specifically to improve the standards of the Aussie industry as a whole. This is now reaping it’s rewards in terms of agency quality, work quality, and the individual skill levels of Australians who choose to stay in this country. This now means Australians are considered strong agency staff worldwide, which was not the case (I’m led to believe) 20 years ago.

If someone chooses a bad candidate simply because of accent, that’s hardly the mark of a good agency anyway. Though I have seen many a posh English accent do the same over in the UK too.

Well spotted Tosh. The ‘bloke’ presumption from Adam speaks volumes. And the whole piece is a stinker. If I was a client and Adam proffered this opinion as evidence of his supposed genius I would be unimpressed, to put it mildly.

@ Been there – sorry, being a rabbit, not an accountant, I disclaimed via the inclusion of (typically), which, refers to the LAFHA rort. Available under this Visa type, based on the employer claiming equivalent skills were not available from the pool of Strayians vying for the role.

Which is more to my point. Though I’m indeed happy you’re happy…just leave the foxes at hunting rifles back home.

@Mich wise words indeed. To many planners from the UK got straight off the boat and became “experts”. They might have been expert planners, but they knew very little about Australia, its people and their beliefs and attitudes. Being sexy didn’t make up for their lack of local knowledge and some less than responsible agencies let them loose on some big budgets. The problem was compounded when they worked with creative, also fresh off the boat and gave us some nice but ineffective English advertising.

As a client, I look for an agency less concerned about how they look and sound in the industry press and more concerned with the quality of their work in driving results to reach my metrics.

@ Rob. I believe the question relates to the present. Thus my response. Nor did my remark about accent have anything to do with quality of agency. It related to job opportunity.

Sheesh. But thank you for raising the standard of the industry as a whole in Australia over the past 20 years. Would that have been the same time Campaign Palace was considered amongst the top Agencies in the world? “Throw another shrimp on the barbie”…

@jenny. How many indigenous Australians do you see in our industry? If Adam had been talking about ‘blacks’ as you put it, the question might have been of a different flavour. I don’t see Adam using the word ‘pom’ in the question.

In next week’s issue: Was this country better before the Women arrived?

Bob
LAHFA was done away with two year ago. Incidentally, anyone moving offices interstate was entitled to LAHFA, so it wasn’t an exclusive POM benefit

@bob is a rabbit @Rob

For the purpose of fact checking…20 years ago the planners at The Campaign Palace were imported Brits (some local juniors, but the training ground was definitely British). Most of them stayed and helped train up local planners in other agencies. And ‘throw another shrimp on the barbie’ was a Mojo invention by the by…

Two things though…

Did the Brits help increase the standards of Aus agencies 20 years ago? Undoubtedly yes.

Is it still the case that imported talent improves the local product?

Not necessarily. I think personal OS experience is far more beneficial and I do agree that there are quite a few (but not all) underqualified Brits trading on their accent to get ahead.

Adam, did you win the business? If not then suggest you hire a voice trainer to gain some English sounding staff on your team.

@ Tosh, no, it wasn’t exclusive. But then again that wasn’t the argument.

And yes, done away with. I would like to see statistics on the employment rates of poms since.

I’m sure Darren Wooley would have such info? Perhaps even the Mumbrella team from their surveys…

@Bob

You mentioned a negative impact on the industry – I was pointing out their role in a long term positive change.

But regardless of why standards have risen, the fact is that now Australian agency folks are in much higher demand in other countries, which means a constant flow of talent in many directions.

For a science/empirical evidence guy there’s a lot of non-sourced generalisations in this piece.

As an aside there are probably disproportionately few Chinese, Greek and Italian etc planners given how much of the multi-cultural mix these nationalities make up.
i’ve no data to support this but it feels reasonable.

@Rob, yes sir you were. I agree standards have risen, not sure this is the result of brit planners however.

Back to my burrow I hop.

@ aussie planner, before I hop, indeed it was mojo – perhaps ‘sick em rex’? I know that to be not the result of english planners.

‘Wouldn’t the world be better without beards?’ would be an equally rational question to ask

As am Pom who has been over here for 7 years I admit that the initial years were interesting… Were things in Australia simply done wrong? or differently?… at the time I thought the former, now I am more for the latter… The UK market is different, it’s bigger and so are the budgets, it is also close to Europe so is often the heart of campaigns that spans across the not only the continent, but sometimes Global … Often the UK market takes the lead, giving greater experience to anyone who works on those campaigns.

The mistake some make is to come to this market and assume that you know more then anyone here without thinking about how that relates to the marketplace you are in. The successful Brits use the knowledge gained from the broader experience they are exposed to, and adapt it to the market they are in. The unsuccessful ones think that their way is best and are not prepared to change their approach to suit.

Whilst there are undoubtedly lots of talented locals in market, it can never be denied that the Brits in Australian media have made a significant impact and a lot of that impact has been for the good of the industry,.

…… and yes, had this article been written about any other ethnicity it would never have made it past the lawyers, but I suppose if Hollywood can make most Villains British, then mumbrella should have no issue’s…

And finally.. Danny… C’mon, you’ve set the bar…in the words of Steven Patrick please????

Rather ridiculous debate to be having. But Adam has obvs (and presumably intentionally) touched a nerve. And everyone has fallen for it. Really just goes to show what a bunch of egotistical, yet thoroughly insecure people advertising folk are…from both sides of the world. Very amusing ten minutes reading comments though…

Wake-up united citizens of the advertsing world – you’ve all fallen for Adam’s wickedly brilliant trick!

He doesn’t believe any of this crass garbage, he’s way too clever for that. Adam simply enjoys getting a rise out of people for the thrill of it and knows that winding Aussies up about Britts in the market will do exactly that – and my have you guys taken the bait. Hook, line and sinker.

Remember a good planner – whether Britt or Aussie – questions EVERYTHING. Maybe you guys should try it.

Kav

I love you, Adam.

Too good for those bloody immigrants that got you to where you are Adam? Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

A good chef works with good ingredients…his question is just lazy! He has a privledge to curate this forum and wastes it. Use it to show us what a genius you are.

Right. That’s enough of that. Back to work you lot!

Sadly it’s this type of stupid comment / observation that gives Australia it’s Racist, backward reputation. Seriously mate get a grip…..

Seriously is this all people have to talk about in the world of advertising?! Since when did the quality of work depend on someone’s ethnicity? How are we supposed to be progressive when such narrow minded views still exist? Surely someone as intelligent as Adam can see how replacing “Brit” with working mother, black, disabled etc would have been extremely offensive. In fact singling out Brits is offensive.
Or maybe as a white, Aussie male Adam has never experienced being part of a minority group and the challenges faced on a daily basis. I’m a brown, working mother who is a POM and an Australian Citizen. If I sat there at work pigeon holing myself into a category I doubt I’d get much done. Luckily I’ve had the good fortune to work for agencies who have embraced talent, hard work, experience and skills over ethnicity. I’m sure most clients look for the same in their agencies.
If all you’ve got to be thrilled about during a pitch is whether the team is mainly Aussies or POMs then you’ve either missed the point of the brief, have ignored every other race who resides in Australia or have too much time on your hands. Maybe it’s all 3.
This article is disappointing on SOOOO many levels. Shame on you mumbrella for publishing it. Maybe Adam should join Tony Abbot’s party. They need a few more like him.

Adam is clearly a very clever and important man. We need to listen very carefully to what he says and ponder its deep psychological meaning. Coming out of anyone else’s mouth it would appear trite, racist, and basically completely irrelevant to all of us.

….but this is Adam saying it people and he is very important. Listen up.

@ Bob not everyone is eligible for LAHFA (and I’m also talking about before they cut it back). I’m speaking as someone who never claimed it, and I’m not alone.

And as a female Australian planner who studied philosophy I don’t really connect with much of this at all. Sounds all a bit traditional and backward to me. A debate from another time.

This reminds me of one of those anti-British rants you quite often get from the guys on SBS TV’s flagship soccer show ‘The World Game’. Full of anglophobic bile, disdain and underlying racism.

Adam are you talking about Brits or are you talking English people? Because you seem to think that Brits are only English.

It’s quite simple.
Clients are easily bewildered and need help to manage a plan.
Thankfully the Brits are an orderly people (and rather partial to the occasional queue)
They help clients feel reassured and keep spending money.

Stay tuned because next week we’re going to ask why so many gays become actors.

If this article reaches 60 comments, there is a high risk that 60 British Planners will explode simultaneously.

PS – in more important news, Prince Harry broke up with his girlfriend.

Excellent work on the click bait Adam, can I suggest you go the full Daily Tele angle next week and do something on cycle lanes.

Without doubt there are far more Pome’s here today who would not have settled here 20 years ago. Skype and Facebook helps the women stay in touch with family and friends in the UK and Foxtel allows the blokes to watch their beloved football. It is a shame that so many Pome groups only encompass Pome friends and acquaintances, it reminds me of the Costa Del Sol. Why move all this way to just hang out with fellow Pome’s; you might as well stay in London?! Is it the weather, the great food and the lower risk of getting mugged on your way home from the station? Yet still they whinge… 😉

Just as our Prime Minister is still desperate to impress the Eaton crowd (but never will) the English don’t impress the locals, no matter how much they try.

You’re not Australian and never will be. You’ll always represent a form cultural condescension that some bogans embrace but many loath. Go home, or stay, but don’t expect to be significant.

@An Aussie Bloke?

I was just about the ask where the females were in this argument and thank you for chiming in!

Thank you Adam Ferrier for bringing this up for discussion.

I know for a fact that it’s not all Aussie or British blokes who purchase goods and services that are advertised in the marketplace.

Don’t you think you’d need people from multicultural backgrounds to understand the consumer mindset a little better, as it was pointed out that Australia is a multi-cultural country? Also, women are now making a good majority of the purchasing decisions, so why is advertising still a sausage fest?

Let’s all ponder this and really invest in diversity and inclusion for BETTER BUSINESS.

I don’t think the question is a racist one. The UK just happens to be the place a large portion of the industry originates (for a range of reasons I won’t bother to mention). It isn’t about them being from anywhere in particular, just that when you are talking to large numbers of consumers, cultural sensitivity is very important.

My experience is that Brits have a lot to bring (and have done so for some time) but they can struggle to understand cultural things – especially when silo’d with each each other.
I was the first Australian ever to be in a particular team (which had existed for 3 or 4 years) and they quickly found that my broad knowledge of Australian culture was invaluable.

Brits only becomes a liability if they refuse to adapt their thinking to the culture and when there isn’t anyone to help them with the culture.

It’s 2014 FFS.

Hi I haven’t had a chance to respond to some of these until now – apologies. Here are my thoughts

1. @Progrssive Thinker, @Rediculous Question @Katie B @hugo et Stereotypes, and assumptions shouldn’t go unquestioned – to deny them is stupid. Read ‘Blink’ for a refresh. To explore them robs them of their power

2. For those who said ‘bloke’ was sexist – I was referring ironically to me – I am a bloke – not multiple genders. Elsewhere in the article I specifically refer to both sexes.

3. @pot Kettle Black you win for funniest comment. For the record, on balance, I think planners with English accents sound more intelligent (and there’s research to support this assumption), and I’ve loved just about all the British planners I’ve worked with including Mike, Kav, Tom, and Jon.

fraser…. i’m with you. i’m struggling to see the relevance of this article.

just out of interest though, can someone tell me who’s winning. the aussies or the poms?

This is an industry of smoke and mirrors where bulldust artists can really thrive, right Adam? The reason Australian agencies hire poms is to raise the perceived intelligence bar. An English accent on the phone always sounds more intelligent than some drawling, nasal Aussie used car salesman. Any ape can be a planner, more importantly it’s how you sell your ideas, pure and simple.

Are Asian agencies better without aussie expats?

The first signs of an antipodean mutiny? Tut-tut. This will never do.

Nice article.

Anyone that is offended, get your head out of your backside.

Brits need to know the culture – inside and out to get great advertising in Australia. There is a lot of depth (believe it or not) when it comes to cultural subtlety. Especially in areas such as sport etc. Seen it as a barrier man many times…

I am an accountant and I object to the idea that studying accounting makes for boring people… can anyone spell Sarbanes-Oxley?

Aussies “get” the culture in their own country, so they do need to be employed in ad agencies.

The Poms can be fun, but they do tend to be a bit up themselves.

If it’s smarts you’re looking for, obviously there needs to be several NZers on board.

With.

Geez Ferrier… you’re becoming the click-bait of Mumbrella.

I’m not buying anything promoted/advertised/plugged by an English accent. Sorry every second ad on the TV is now a turn off not a turn on.

One huge value Brits bring to the game is they are the only professionals in this business I’ve ever heard suggest greater diversity in advertising unprompted by the client.

If you have Aussies doing the work you can stone cold guarantee that every single person in your creative on TVC, print, digital outdoor will we be white.

It’s a huge, scary mental block in this industry that Aussies singularly fail to understand and agencies are quietly losing pitches and work because of it.

British advertising is 20 years ahead of Australia is this respect and it’s a disgrace.

I say Aussie agencies, much, much better with Brits.

If this was America I’d sue. In fact, I’m going to speak to a solicitor.

> Why should a person underplay there background

Oh dear.

> diversity is key in this country and this is a diverse multicultural meting pot!

The raped and abused word ‘diversity’ has become the Horst Wessel song of every ‘liberal’ moron.

This is a new low Mumbrella – ridiculous topic aside, is adland that boring that we need to come up with bullshit conversations like this?

Hey while were at it, lets ban the burkha in agencies as well!